On August 9. 2005, Banning Eyre spoke with Amadou Bagayoko by telephone in New York. Riding high on the success of Dimanche a Bamako, Amadou and Mariam had played two sold-out shows at Joe’s Pub the night before. Here’s their conversation.
Banning Eyre : How was the show at Joe’s Pub in New York last night?
Amadou: It was a great time. The place was full. People were trying to get in, but there were no more places. I think it had sold out two or three days in advance. So when we came and played, it was really great. We were very happy and I think the people were happy.
B.E.: Congratulations on the new record, Dimanche a Bamako. I understand it’s a big success.
Amadou: Absolutely. Dimanche a Bamako has met with a lot of success. Everywhere we go, people love this record, in , in , in , in . Even here. Everyone loves this record.
B.E.: Were you and Mariam surprised at the size of the success?
Amadou: Not really. It was a bit of a surprise, but each time we have made a record ,we have always thought it was going to do really well. The first one, we were sure it was going to be a big success. Second one, same thing. The third one. But it’s the fourth one that has really done it. So you could say it was a surprise, but one we were waiting for.
B.E.: I want to go back for a minute to the very beginning of your career. When we met at Angouleme, France in 2002, you told me about how you and Mariam had come from Sikasso, how you met in Bamako at the Institute for the blind. Did either of you ever imagine back in the 1970s that you would come so far?
Amadou: No, no, no, no. We couldn’t have imagined it. All the success, traveling around the world. We never thought about that. We just wanted to play music together. We thought that ours was a story that would work in , but beyond that, we never imagined.
B.E.: I have two of your early cassettes, Volume 1, and Volume 4. I was just listing to your very first recording. It is very simple, just a guitar and your voices. What was it like making that first recording? Had you been doing a lot of concerts before that?
Amadou: We met for the first time in 1975. I was a musician. So was she. She wanted to become a professional. I was already a professional. So that was all we talked about in the beginning. The very first time we played together, Mariam and I, was in 1976 in a hall called Salle des Ancients Combattants. It was on the 20th of January, in
Bamako . It went very well. In fact it was a big success. So we continued to play with the Institute Band, a band of blind people. We were married in 1980, and then began to play as a couple, Mariam and I. We traveled around . In 1985 we went all over the country, and then into . And then it was in 1986 that we went to . That was because at the time, there were no good recording studios in . There were no real record labels, and no producers. Just about everything released in was recorded in , where people went to record, or else in , or . So everyone was going to , and that’s why we also went there in 1986.
B.E.: Were all these early volumes recorded in Ivory Coast?
Amadou: All of them. Even Volume 1. When we started, there were no recording studios in . That’s why we went. We recorded Volumes 1 and 2 at the same time in 1988, and they were released in 1989. Volumes 3 and 4 we recorded in 1990, and they were released in 1991.
B.E.: So you did your first concert in 1976, and it was 12 years before you had any music released on the market. Is that right?
Amadou: That’s right. 12 years. That first concert was done with the band at the Institute, a band of students. Everyone sang and danced. There was a lot of traditional music.
B.E.: But when you recorded in 1988, it was just you guys singing and an acoustic guitar, and do I hear a big ngoni there?
Amadou: On the first two, it’s just the guitar, and Mariam and me. There is no ngoni.
B.E.: It’s closer to tradition then what you do now. But it isn’t really traditional music, is it? These are your songs. Later on, we hear a lot of your rock-and-roll influences, Jimi Hendrix and all that. Talk a bit about the evolution of your recordings.
Amadou: From the very beginning, we just played our own music. The music that was original to us, from our side. That was the fundamental formula. We didn’t try to mix it up. So for the first two volumes, that’s what we did, just guitar and vocals. That was what established our style as Amadou and Mariam. So then when it came time to make Volumes three and four, and the rest, we had to add other instruments like drums and bass. That was when we started to add our other influences, as people who had been listening to blues and rock. So that was the evolution. The first volumes were just Amadou and Mariam in our natural traditional mode. Once that was established, we started adding in our influences, blues and rock and Bambara music.
B.E.: When we talk about the traditional side, Bambara music, I have the impression that even in the beginning, you were always open to the idea of modernizing. You are never really playing traditional music as such, isn’t that right?
Amadou: No, no, no. It was a matter of finding our style. That’s why I’m telling you that those first recordings let us know ourselves, and know our own style. Because even when we sang traditional songs, we didn’t want sing them like traditional singers. I didn’t want play guitar like an ngoni. I wanted to play according to my own influences. For example, there is a song on Volume 2, “C’etait Johnny.” It’s good, but when you listen to it, even though there is just one guitar, you can tell that it’s very modern, closer to the blues than the ngoni.
B.E.: So that was always your idea.
Amadou: Always our idea. We always wanted to make modern music, mixed music, music that Malians could find themselves in, but also that others would find themselves in.
B.E.: Interesting. So when we talk about the evolution of Malian music, this is something that sets Amadou & Mariam a bit apart. You’re not like the griots, who are guided by a great loyalty to a particular tradition, or even the Wassoulou musicians. They also modernize the style, but they start from the basis of a particular sound. I have the impression that you have always been a bit more open, and maybe part of new wave in Malian music, maybe in the same category as Habib Koite, who mixes a lot of different styles, or Rokia Traore. What do you think about that?
Amadou: In effect, that’s right. Ours is a new style. We are more or less the first artists in music to create a style that is both blues and rock, and Malian at the same time. Most of the others are more traditional than us, because ever since we started making music, we were always moving. Me, I started playing guitar, and the first song I learned to play was not a traditional song. It was a Cuban song. After that, I played Jimi Hendrix songs, James Brown songs. We didn’t go to the same school as other musicians. So when we started to work, we were always trying to create our own style. Whereas a lot of other musicians, when they started, they started with tradition. The griots always have their tradition, but we were a little freer. We are not traditional. We are not considered in to be traditional musicians. No Malians think of us that way.
B.E.: Right. And that does give you a certain freedom, doesn’t it? Tell me. You played guitar with Les Abassadeurs. Was the music of Salif Keita important to you in the beginning?
Amadou: Yes, Salif Keita’s music was important, but what was more important to me in the beginning was Les Ambassadeurs, because their music was not only the music of Salif Keita. There were many genres of music that they played. If Les Ambassadeurs was important for me, it was not because of Salif Keita and his music. For us, his music was something we were used to playing in . It was traditional music, Manding music.
B.E.: Okay. But I was thinking of later when he made Soro and his other recordings in . To me, that record marked a real turning point in the modernization of Malian music. It was something new.
Amadou: Yes, when he made Soro, it was no longer Les Ambassaduers. It was Salif. But when we were in Les Ambassadeurs together, there were a lot of singers. There were some who sang James Brown songs, and Otis Redding songs, Wilson Pickett. There were singers who did Bad Company, also French songs, and international repertoire, tango, waltzes, blues, jazz. We did all that. So he was a traditional, Malian singer, but there were plenty of other singers singing other music, and that was what really shaped Les Ambassadeurs.
B.E.: That’s interesting. Because when you listen to the records that have been released of Les Ambassadeurs, that’s not what we hear. We hear Salif. It seems like they didn’t record all these other styles, but that’s what you played in concerts?
Amadou: That’s it. Yes. But at the time, Les Ambassadeurs were like that. There was variety. There was a singer who sang only Zairian music. There were others who sang Senegalese songs, French songs, others who sang Cuban songs. We had a big repertoire of Cuban songs.
B.E.: That is not what you recorded.
Amadou: No, no, no. What we recorded was Salif’s style. But for us, Les Ambassadeurs was important because of the variety. When you went to look for a job in a band, and you said you had played in Les Ambassadeurs, that meant something. That was a school. People put on records, and learned the parts of them. They were professionals. So we did lots of blues, James Brown songs, Otis. Everything that came out, we played. It was great.
B.E.: When we arrive at the international career of Amadou and Mariam, the first CD was Sou ni Tilé. What year was that?
Amadou: It was recorded in 1997, but it came out in 1998.
B.E.: And how many cassette volumes had there been before that? Four?
Amadou: Six.
B.E.: When we get to Sou ni Tilé, it’s all this sound. Lots of new instruments. Indian tablas, and violin. There’s a real feeling of opening up to the world. What was your experience making this record?
Amadou: Sou ni Tilé. That came when we had moved to , and we wanted to make a more mixed kind of music. Because in
Africa , we couldn’t have all these people. We couldn’t have had the time to invite so many artists. Sou ni Tilé was our chance. We have enough time in the studio, and enough means to bring people in. That was the first time. We came, we started recording, and then we invited other musicians to join us. There was a drummer then Stephan, and then bass, keyboards. We made the record, and it was good. This song “Je Pense a Toi,” was the hit. People really liked that song from the start.
Then came Tje ni Mousso. That was our second one, and we really worked hard on it. We did a lot of arrangements. We ourselves think that Tje ni Mousso is our most rock album. All the hottest songs in our concerts come from Tje ni Mousso, like “Chantez-Chantez,” “Dagneba,” “Nangaraba,” all that.
Then Wati was the synthesis of all that. We recorded it in roughly the same circumstances as Sou ni Tilé. This time we brought in traditional instruments like the ngoni from , the calabash, and the Peul flute. It was also a good album, and that brought us to Dimanche a Bamako.
B.E.: Let’s talk about Dimanche a Bamako. How did the connection with Manu Chao happen?
Amadou: Manu Chao really liked our music, and because he really liked our music, he said something about it in newspaper or magazine. It was Wati that he had heard. He said it heard it in his car and it had changed his life. It really interested him. At the time Wati came out, he was not in
. He was in . But when he came back to France, he discovered the record, and he went and found the other CDs, and listened to them over and over—all the time. So when we found out that our music was interesting to him, we also wanted to meet. It happened in
Paris in October, 2003. Our first meeting with Manu Chao was at Studio Davout. It was really, really good. When we decided we were going to meet, we made the rendezvous in a studio. That way we could try something right away. When musicians meet, everybody comes with his guitar, and they try to play together. So we can. We got our guitars, and we started to play some songs like “La Fête au Village,” “La Réalité,” “Beaux Dimanches,” “Artistiya,” “Coulibaly.” So he listened to the songs, and he really liked them.
B.E.: So you had already written these songs, and now you played them for him.
Amadou: That’s it. Because when we found out we were going to meet with Manu Chao, we prepared a few songs. These were the songs we had ready. He was really happy, and right away took out his guitar and tried to play along. He put a rhythm guitar part in. Then he too presented some songs, like “Senegal Fast Food.” That was the song we really liked he sang it and we wanted to add to it. We liked the part about how it’s midnight in Tokyo and its five o’clock in , but what time is it in
Paradise ? So then we sang in Bambara. We said we are all in the same boat, but nobody knows where we are going. It was like, we’re all in this together, but nobody knows what’s going to happen. So the best solution is for those who have gone on this adventure to a strange land to think about those they left behind in their country. If they’re in the big city, they must think about their parents and friends who have stayed behind in small villages. That’s what we sang about in “Senegal Fast Food,” because the song about exodus, about people who are going here and there. People who want to live this way have problems, with visas, with the police, all that. The best thing is to pay attention. You are there, but you don’t know what’s going to happen.
So after we sang on “Senegal Fast Food,” he played the music for “M’Bife.” When he played the music, I played guitar, and Mariam wrote the song. So then we were begun. Then came “Camions Sauvages.” That was his song. Mariam sang, and then I sang. Then we brought other songs like “La Paix,” a celebration of solidarity between all people. Then “Gnindjougouya,” “Coulibaly.”
B.E.: So right to the start, Manu Chao came with the idea that you would all work together, right?
Amadou: Manu Chao when he came, he didn’t come with the idea that we would work right away. We would just try something and see what happened, see if we could work together. That was the first day, but then everyone was very happy. It was good. It was good. It was good. Because when you’ve never worked with someone before, you don’t know what is possible together. But since the first day, we found ourselves together. That’s when we said, “What we did is good. Lets see if we can make a record.” So then we spent three days together recording. But it wasn’t planned like that from the beginning. We didn’t go in with the idea we were going to make a record. It was just to meet.
B.E.: But then you ended up together at the Festival in the Desert. How did that happen?
Amadou: After those first three days, he went back to his other work, but we decided we were going to make a record together, and we decided that we should do some of the work in Bamako. That’s how he came to
Bamako in January, 2004. We continued to work there, and that the same time, we went up to the Festival in the Desert. So between these two events, it’s a story of three months.
B.E.: How long did Manu spend in Mali?
Amadou: I think it was about 15 days. We traveled together, all the way to Timbuktu, because to go to Timbuktu, you have to cross a lot of . It’s about 1000 km. So he saw Malian life. And then we returned and played in Bamako, at a little place called the Djembe in Lafiabougou.
B.E.: I know it well. I have played there with Djelimady Tounkara and the Super Rail Band.
Amadou: That’s it. Djelimady and his group play there all the time. It’s a very warm place. So he played there. He really liked
.
B.E.: Tell me about the song “Camions Sauvages.”
Amadou: That was Manu Chao’s idea. It talks about the bush trucks in
Africa . They're not in good condition. And the roads are not good. The brakes are not good. People get killed, and animals.
B.E.: I want to ask you about another song on the new record and that's “Politic Amagni.” That fits well with the work of Manu Chao who has a kind of political attitude in his work. But for you, politics has not been part of your music. How did you feel about having such of political song on this album?
Amadou: Yes, it's true. On our records, we don't talk much about that. Maybe a little more in our concerts. Actually, the origin of the song was our kids. Because we have our second son who is a rapper. And they're the ones who composed the song. His name is Samou, and he raps. So they were the ones singing “Politic Amagni.” They were singing this at the house, and Manu was there. He listens, and then he took his guitar and started working together to make the song. Manu also added things. He came up with these English words. He really liked the song. So then we asked if we could add something, Mariam and I. But we did not get into the idea that politics is bad. If you go into politics, you have to avoid violence, and you have to avoid corruption. We like honest men and women, people who can build the country. So that's what we sang.
So politics, Manu has sung about that before. So then we called in another singer Tiken Jah Fakoly, because he also sings a lot about politics. We had met up with him before, and we said we should do something together. So this song gave us the chance to call Tiken Jah Fakoly to sing with us. This was very, very good because Manu Chao is engaged in that sense, and Tiken too is engaged in that sense. And then we were the middle. We're not very political, but we were there.
B.E.: And you are comfortable with that, been part of the project. Everyone found their voice and their place in the song, is that right?
Amadou: Exactly. Everyone found their voice in the song.
B.E.: I was in Bamako in March, and I was impressed with how popular some of the rappers are. Even older guys like Djelimady are very interested, have a lot of respect for people like Tata Pound. Djelimady told me that these people deserve respect because they "say the things that we are afraid to say." I was kind of surprised by that. It made me feel like there's a new dialogue going on between musicians and politicians. This is something very different from the past. Would you agree?
Amadou: This is a revolution, because of rap. It’s now in music, but it started in theater. Theater people were in the habit of addressing leaders directly, talking about corruption and responsibility. This was big in theater. But in music, the started with rap. Rappers started talking to politicians and trying to engage them directly in dialogue. Singers did this to some extent, but not like the rappers now.
B.E.: So in this environment, a song like “Politic Amagni” should do well with people. What has been a reception for this record, Dimanche a Bamako, among the people Bamako?
Amadou: Among the Bamakois, this album is well loved, especially the song “Beaux Dimanches,” which says, "Sunday's the day for weddings in Bamako." Everyone is singing that. At weddings you always hear it. We were a bit astonished that the album is doing so well and
. But it is. You even hear “Beaux Dimanches” as people's cell phone ring tones. This is great.
B.E.: Would you say that this record has done even better than the earlier ones?
Amadou: Yes, yes, yes.
B.E.: After you met Manu Chao in France, and then you traveled with him to Timbuktu, you returned to Bamako to do the finishing work on the record. What was that like?
Amadou: Well, we had done the original recording before. So now we listened together, and then we did pretty much the same thing. We would sing a song, and he would say, "That's good." And he would add something. Then we called our bassist and our percussionist. We had Cheikh Tidiane Seck with his keyboard. He came to help with the album. Then there were others, saxophone, flute, harmonica. They came.
B.E.: This record has a different kind of modernism about it than any of your other records. There are some songs that would work even in the dance nightclub. Do you think that a new audience will discover Amadou and Mariam, and maybe other Malian music, because of this record? And if so, who?
Amadou: With this album, and its new style, we can reach a public that is more used to listening to rock. There with us now. They're dancing to our music. And blues too. Outside of people who just listened to world music, we are now reaching people who listened to rock and blues. We have played a lot of rock festivals. So that's a new public. Our audience now includes young kids is well. Young kids like it hot. They like to dance.
B.E.: I think the new audience for world music, the young audience, likes records like this that are very well produced, very modern, using some electronics, but also with roots in the mix. They like their tradition processed.
Amadou: That's true. The tradition is there, along with the modern. Modernity does not break tradition. And it's important to feel them both. If a music becomes to modernized, it loses its value.
B.E.: Right. I find it interesting the way the style of modernizing has changed in recent years. This is a very modern record. I wonder. In all of your travels around the world, have you discovered any new music that you especially like?
Amadou: What has been new for me is ideas about how to arrange and produced music. As far as inspiration goes, there's nothing new. There are a lot of new machines and processes.
B.E.: It's pretty hard to rival the musical heroes of your youth, isn't it?
Amadou: Yes, that's true.
B.E.: Okay, we’re just about through. The last time we spoke, you told me that you and Mariam love to travel. Is that still true?
Amadou: [LAUGHS] Yes, we still love it. We always love traveling. It is exhausting. But we love it. There are many places we haven't been yet and we always love to go.
Amadou Bagayoko: 2005
Interview by Banning Eyre
B.E.: Thanks very much, and send my best to Mariam.
Amadou: Thank you. 
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