Afropop Worldwide met up with Simon Emerson and N'Faly Kouyate from Afro-Celt Sound System the morning after the band made their debut on Late Night with David Letterman. Playing their song, "When You're Falling," with Peter Gabriel from their third album Further In Time, Afro-Celt was entirely conscious of the important milestone in the band's career. Both Emerson & Kouyate were in high spirits, despite the little sleep they both got the night before. The following is the interview done by Afropop's Adam Wasserman & Martin Lijtmaer.

APWW: So tell us a little bit about the inception of Afro-Celt, how did it happen, where did the idea come from?

SE: I was a record producer and was sought out by African Afro Jazz pioneer Manu Dibango after he heard "Acid Jazz And Other Illicit Grooves - Vol.1." I then started working with Femi Kuti. After that I began work on Baaba Maal's album. While we were in the studio in 1992 I was working on Baaba Maal's album, and Davy Spalan played this lovely Irish low whistle and it worked perfectly in the track. It was sort of an epiphany And he said that he had always been told that the Aboriginal Irish were probably from Africa, dark skinned, and that some of the Celts probably come from the Berber people, North African. And he just told me all of this amazing stuff and just encouraged me. He said, "You've got to pursue this, it's definitely something and you've uncovered a very deep straft of musical knowledge. So I went back a couple of years later and did another album with Baaba Maal called "Firin' In Fouta." It got a Grammy nomination here in 1995 and was quite a well received record. And on that record I involved Murden, the Celtic Harp player from Brittany, and a Bouzouki player named Donol Lunny, who is one of the islands top producers. And it worked great, it really worked well. There was a basis for making an Afro-Celt record. In 1995 I put the project together, with members of Baaba Maal's band, and what is now the Afro-Celts, Iarla, James, a Piper called Ronan Brown, and we had this week at Real World in a garage, which we had decked out like a rave. The studio had been decorated by Jamie Reed, who I had known through all of the Sex Pistols artwork with punk graphics. He had put these Celtic and alchemical symbols up everywhere. And I sent him a tape of the track just as a way of saying thanks, because it was great working in such a sympathetic environment. Most recording studios are fairly grim places, sterile. And He sent me back a little sketch of a lion and a unicorn. It said "Afro-Celt's Music From the Light Continent." He said, "Use this for the album that you are going to make." At that point I hadn't even thought about making an album. So in 1995 with Real World and all these musicians coming in, we made Volume 1, and it was a great collaborative experience. By the end of the week I think everybody felt that something really profound had happened. And we all look back at that moment, James will talk about that moment as one of the most defining moments of his life. I think I really felt this incredible responsibility that we had uncovered something quite profound at the time. I'm not Irish and I'm not African, so I was aware that the whole project could go in many different ways. I called it Volume I because I thought that there would probably be other producers coming in and guest producers would be doing Volume II, that we might do an Indo-Celt record. The last thing that I expected was the whole thing to become a band, with touring commitments, a stable lineup. And to be honest, I really didn't think that would work because Real World are not geared up for bands. They are a label where you take projects, individual records that are left field, experimental, low budget etc. What has happened is that we've become a kind of monster. But is has worked, it is incredible. There have been major turning points in the bands history. There was the initial moment in 1992, there was the moment in 1995, and I think last night was another moment, where we came of age, it was a real milestone for us. I'm really proud, and since then I've really stood back a lot more now. I'm no longer the producer of the band I am focusing much more on my guitar, bouzouki playing and mandolin which I have been playing for a year now. You know I bought a mandolin a year ago and now I'm playing the frigging thing on Letterman. (laughs). And N'Faly is out main man now for Kora Playing and singing. He has a career in Belgium. Johnny Kalsi has a solo album out. Everyone in this band has an amazing story.

APWW: And do you think that it works as a band, as a cohesive unit better than you expected?

SE: It works musically, but it's logistically really difficult. There were like 15 people at the rehearsal last night, people sorting out Peter Gabriel. It's very difficult to organize, I would be lying if I said it was easy, but it does work. And the fact that it is so strong musically has kept us together. The point when we are on stage is completely magical, it is a point of transcendence, where you put everything else behind. In my naivety at the beginning of the band I thought it would be this collective, and we wouldn't have management and it would be outside of the mainstream music industry and playing alternative festivals that my friends were organizing. We could have gone that way, and if it had been left to me we probably would, but the rest of the band was saying "No way." James was in The Pogues and he was saying that this could be just as big. Iarla was saying, "Look, I've got friends who I grew up with that are now play for the Chieftains and play for four-thousand people in America." I guess they were the ones that really pushed the vision.

APWW: N'Faly, how did you come across and join Afro-Celt?

NK: In 1997 I was at a music festival and was asked to play for five minutes before Salif Keita took the stage. I said, 'Yes, of course!'

APWW: Where you nervous?

NK: No, not at all. I'm from a family of musicians; my father and my grandfather were musicians and I was raised with music. One is never happier than when one has a large public to play for. So, I took my Kora and noticed that James was watching me from backstage. I started playing and James went and got a flute and started playing over my accompaniment. After that, we played together in a small free concert after which James was enthused with our conglomeration. This led to a meeting with my agent and Thomas Dumont where I was invited to join Afro-Celt in a concert in Dublin. After the concert I was asked to continue with the group, thanks to the kindness of the group members like Simon and James. The first day I played with the entire band, I didn't really know what my place was (as a Kora player) in the group. After playing a couple times we started communicating musically and they asked me to completely integrate myself into Afro-Celt.

APWW: Where you surprised that you could play the Kora in conjunction with the other non-African instruments?

NK: Yes, it was a surprise. With all the technology, the guitars, the keyboard I asked myself how it was possible that I could continue to play the Kora in this context. After hearing our first CD, I remembered my father telling me that I should always try things that were unfamiliar to me. The more you try something the more you understand it. Thus I grew to understand and incorporate the Kora better in Volume II where I was also given the opportunity to sing. Everyone was enthusiastic about my efforts and the energy in the recording studio with the other musicians made me put everything I had into the music! This mind set continued through Volume III.

APWW: Ten years ago, did you ever imagine yourself and your Kora where you are now?

NK: Never. Ten years ago, I didn't even think about going to Europe! Much less a fusion with Western instruments! When I was invited to go to Belgium and then asked to teach Kora in the conservatory, I asked myself, 'What's going on here?' Then they invited me to go to London for a music festival where I met this ensemble that was world music, techno and just incredible. Then I had the opportunity to do that! It's amazing; it makes me really happy to be able to participate with such a group. As a musician, I feel a responsibility to capture my history and culture for the younger generation. With Afro-Celt, I have the opportunity to continue this work but to a new public. I can now present my culture to other cultures- the British, the Irish, etc.

APWW: Do you feel that within the context of Afro-Celt that the Kora loses its African character?

NK: Along with modern times comes modern music. Now techno and hip-hop are the preferred music of the modern young generation. With Afro-Celt, we are fusing the ancient and the new hence re-evaluating traditional music within a different context. So, we are moving forward without losing sight of the root that allowed us to get here.

APWW: Tell us a little bit about the creative process for this album, how it came about? Is the stuff that is on the album written or do you come across it through improvisation or are they amalgams of preconceived ideas?

SE: The only rule is that there aren't any rules. I can't give you a blueprint about how we write the tracks. I can describe different scenarios. One scenario which we have in common with a lot of bands that write collectively, which rage from Radiohead to Public Enemy, is that we are all people that work around a common tempo and a common key. Apparently Fear of the Black Planet was written like this, sitting around with their samplers, putting stuff together and then they would put it all together and mix and match it. Radiohead works similarly apparently. And there is an element to that, which goes on in the Afro-Celts. There were three working areas. James has his corner of the studio, Martin has his, and Mass, our programmer has his. We would work on grooves. Sometimes James would come up with a rhythm pattern, a template that would be the basis for Moussa, Johnny, James and Pete or whoever to play over, and from that James or I might come up with some chords, and we would pass it around. Sometimes it is literally just sitting there and playing some chords and singing a melody. The Peter Gabriel track was written like a classic rock song, we had never really done it before. It was a two chord mandolin riff, which I played and Iarla sung the melody. We worked on the lyric and James came in with the larger arrangement. Sometimes it would be a top line. Lovers of Light: Volume II, was written with me strumming the guitar and James playing the whistle. There is absolutely no formula to it. Martin has a systematic way of working as the band engineer, we would record everything onto hard disk. We couldn't do it without hard disk. And what that allows us to do is take stuff from two or three years ago and overlay it with stuff that had been done the previous week. We're kind of MIDI and hard disk dependant. However we could do an album where we throw all that out the window and do a completely live record or an acoustic record. So as I said, rules are made to be broken. The one thing about the Afro-Celts is that we've never really wanted to come up with an easy formula. The most radical thing that we did on this record is that we wrote some radio tracks. The hip London press kind of slagged us off and said, "Oh how boring, what a safe thing to do." But I'm sorry guys, but that is the last thing that you would expect the Afro-Celts to do is to write a song like "When You're Falling." You can say that you don't like it, fair enough. You can say that it is not very Afro-Celt, but it is not a safe thing for us to do.

APWW: Would you say that those melodic motifs came about after the chords?

SE: That's like, what comes first, the lyrics or the piece. It really does vary, but there really isn't any standard way of working because there are so many of us, there is such a strong creative writing team. We haven't actually started with one of N'Faly's songs which is something that I would like to do. He hasn't come to the table and said, "Here is my track." But there is four of us writing, so we haven't done that. There are a few things and barriers that we are exploring.

APWW: It seems like it all really comes into fruition in the live settings, where the interplay of the members of the band is evident.

SE: Yeah, I agree. On Volume II, N'Faly had just joined the band, and we were just finding our feet as a live act, and we had lost Joe. Volume III, we had done a lot of gigging and we were writing, arranging and producing the tracks as we would play them live. A song like Colossus. I think really has the power of our live performances. You would never know that the different instruments had been recorded in different places all over. But that is the live sensibility, the live dynamic. And when we were mixing Shadowman we were imagining how that would be on stage. Saying, 'this is the point when Demba comes forward, this is the point when Johnny comes forward.'

APWW: Tell us a little bit how Demba's rapping and this untapped resource of his vocal ability will be used in the future.

SE: Yeah, absolutely. Demba is great. I'm very proud. He came in originally as a dancer, and now he is rapping and if we can maintain the process of progression, nurturing and bringing in new talent, I think that is fantastic. All the best bands in the world did that. The best Reggae sound systems were always bringing in new acts. I've been in rock bands, and that's great, but I've always tried to bust out of that formula.

APWW: With respect to African polyrhythms, do you feel that this kind of rhythmic structure applies to the music of Afro-Celt?

NK: With Afro-Celt, It's better not to even think about rhythm in a traditional fashion. You might say that the rhythms at which we arrived at are a logical resultant of fusing together different kinds of music. Of course different songs are structured differently- some songs swing more towards African, others more techno and most create a new rhythmic structure that fall between the different styles- African, Celtic and English.

APWW: Tell us how you feel about your record company and management licensing your music out to advertisements. Do you think that it is a necessary evil?

SE: It's how we pay our wages. We haven't got a band policy. A lot of people came to our music through La Femme Nikita. We have real problems getting our music played on the radio and we have real problems earning a living. Three years ago, I was really broke, and I was working my ass off, I was working harder than I have ever worked before. We don't at this point have the luxury to put ideological principles before financial necessity. We also need as maximum amount of exposure that we can get. And these are all important decisions. Plus the fact that the record company make a lot of money out of it and Real World is not a rich company. We're not doing it out of greed, we're doing it out of financial necessity. Prior to the Afro-Celts I was doing a lot of music advertising and making a huge amount of money doing it, and then going off and doing the world music albums for nothing. It was a very nice balance. Then I stopped doing the music for advertising because I got sick of it, I was sick of working with the people. I went on income support. Then I started the Afro-Celts, which was a conscious decision that, "We've now made money, we're now going to start the Afro-Celts." And we are now doing ok, we are all playing the band well, we are earning a decent living. That comes first, personally if I wasn't doing this I would probably be an active member of the Anti-Globalization Movement. What's great about them is that it is not as prescriptive and dogmatic and it is aware that it is a very open discourse, and you can't really wag your finger too easily. But it has saved our ass quite a few times to be honest. The band has reached financial meltdown a couple of times and if an advert comes along it has kept us afloat.

APWW: I'm sure that it does a lot in terms of being a music that gets out there and is accessible as well, it increases your profile.

SE: World Music is used as a kind of kind of backdrop for globalization. It's a very lovely notion of musical harmony that is used to promote globalization. What I'd say is that we are music for a global village but we are not music for globalizing the village. I think the difference between us and a band like Deep Forest is that we have musicians that are deeply rooted in their own traditions, and if we make money, it goes into N'Faly's pocket and then it goes back and is used to supply electricity to his school. That's how direct it is. If that is Robin Hood, then fine. If we are stealing from the rich to give to the poor then I am happy to do that. We get a big advertising campaign, we can use that to support our own band members an in tern support roots music. None of us are pure. A lot of our friends that come from a punk/anarchist background that would rather us not deal with advertising at all. The first advert that we were offered was Nescafé, and I refused to do it. Nescafé has been responsible for selling powdered milk to African women, and discouraging them from using breast milk. They water the milk down and then all the kids get dysentery, and then there was a campaign against that. We're not here to make political statements. I'm very inspired by bands that still fly the flag of the spirit of punk. I still think that is great.

NK: I remember the last time I went to my village, and after the problem with electricity, I saw the Griot people and I spoke to them. Now I want to help these people. It is very difficult because before the 12th century they worked for the King, now the job is dying. This job of the singer and the historian, these people are having difficulties getting money to eat. It really tears at my heart that the musician can no longer live by his art. It's a personal project of mine to save the Griot from his fate; to save that aspect of our history and culture. It has nothing to do with the money- it's just the freedom and possibility to live as a musician, as an artist. I participate in a small society in Belgium called "La Defense de la Culture" which works towards my cause. And, Afro-Celt is a means in which I can fight for this cause.

APWW: Where do you see the music progressing, would you even go so far as to put out a live album?

SE: Oh absolutely. If we had the resources we would like to put on a full DVD. I would like to do a live DVD, where you can get all the camera positions and see everything and then have an alternative reality where you have a Jamie Reed visual and then you can also at the same time have the stuff remixed in surround. I would like to get into the whole multimedia side of it. We've done that so people can enter into the hidden language of the music and make it a bit more public.

NK: I would like the music to head off in a more acoustic direction emphasizing the timbres and qualities of the diverse instruments; the mandolin, guitar, Kora, Tablas etc. I feel the acoustic sound will further bring out the polyphonic nature of our music. I remember playing with James when he was playing the piano. It was beautiful! That is the essence of Afro-Celt. It would be really nice to limit ourselves to the acoustic instruments and drums.

APWW: What would you like to see happen next, where would you like to progress to and what elements would you like emphasized?

SE: I would like to see a bit more Murden on the next album. I want to go back to the simplicity of the guitar, kora, and harp which I think is a lovely sound, and more acoustic stuff. What excites me about the Afro-Celts is the more subtle acoustic moments, but that is just personal.

APWW: Everything that you have to go through is a necessary means for you to go and play live. Can you sum up what it feels like when you are up there playing live?

SE: No, because if I could sum it up I probably wouldn't do it. It's transcendence. It's nothing that I can really put it into words. It is a payback we've been through a huge amount of grief, and we are getting massive recognition in America, but I haven't done a single interview in Britain. The reviews in the English press have been appalling. That's my kind of musical environment as a record producer. So that's irrelevant now. The vibe on stage when we played Letterman was fantastic. To see Peter up there, who I've known for years, and his daughter on backing vocals, and N'Faly is there, the whole live thing is a payback. To see us live is really when the music speaks. The best gigs that we do are often at the rock festivals with a young rock and roll audience. N'Faly walks on stage with his Kora and people are just blown away saying, "Who that's not a guitar." We've done gigs where people are crowd surfing, North European audiences love it. The people that I hate are the academic, middle class world music audiences that just kind of stand there. They're the worst to be honest. There is an element in world music that sees it as some kind of precious commodity, from these far away places that has to be put in a museum and preserved. But you go to Africa and it is music to celebrate to. They are poor and desperate at times, but they have this culture that sustains them, and that is what music is all about. When you go onstage you want to share that with people. French Translation of N'Faly Kouyate by Martin Lijtmaer